"Soul, as I really have no idea, can you tell me what the climate is in Switzerland in terms of medical malpractice lawsuits, judgments and the like.Here, there is much waste in terms of the number of tests ordered by a doctor so as to make sure they have covered every base, and, I don't doubt that there may be a kick back arrangement or two between those who order tests and those who conduct them."

On this question I can only say what I think as I certainly don't have access to any data on this... but lawsuits in general are far fewer in number in Europe than in North America. However, that being said, I have never been to a doctor here without having my blood checked, the point being that the doctors here don't ever seem to take chances, they want to know what is really wrong with you and are not afraid of tests.

I chalk this up to the way health care is paid for - each person has a choice, lower monthly costs with a higher 'franchise' or the reverse (but there is always a franchise). For instance, since I know that I need physiotherapy for an injury I have from a car crash, I have only a 300 chf per year franchise, but pay approximately 200 chf per month for the health care. That franchise means that people don't usually go to the doctor when they have something frivolous like loneliness or sniffles, as they will pay for the first few visits out of their own pocket. However, if they get cancer they will never have to worry about not being treated, losing their home etc. So doctors take your visits seriously and don't tend to send you away with a baggie of drugs or a simple 'it's all in your head' answer. The main thing though is the lack of 'kickbacks'... everything here is totally transparent when it comes to costs and the costs are reasonable. It's a very Swiss ultra-democracy thing, for instance we get yearly budgets with itemized costs for every level of government and other recipients of taxation dollars constantly coming in through the door.

Actually in many ways the system here is a much purer version of democracy than in the US- our taxes reflect what we spend (my taxes on a high income are less than 20%), the government has no clear leader but a council made up from various parties which work together and rotate the leadership... despite 4 official languages and clear cultural differences, the French, German, Italian and Romansch (not to mention Turkish, Albanian, English etc... foriegners make up 20% of the population) all live pretty harmoniously and have for centuries. There are more referendums per year in Switzerland on items submitted by the public for the public to vote on than in all other countries in the world combined! Sometimes that leads to silliness (like the recent banning of minaret building) but often it is very pro-active (free movement of individuals with the European Union including co-ordinated border security).

"Also, do you have a tremendous amount of illegal immigrants that visit emergency care facilities and use same as their family doctor? Do you have a lot of people that incur health care bills for needed services with no intention to pay, and who are, essentially, judgment proof?"

No... the franchise seems to take care of most of that problem, a very high minimum wage (approx. 25 chf per hour) / low unemployment (>5%) and tightly controlled immigration (very hard to come here with no job) takes care of the rest.

"I know you're in Switzerland, Soul, but really!"

:) I laughed at this... yes it was meant to seem naiive. I actually have a university degree in US politics and originally come from Canada (where I was infiltrated with US TV 24/7)... but I was just trying to re-enforce the point that I believe that many of the Democrats really wanted some bipartisanship and the Republicans simply want to say no, no, no. There were actually a number of Democrats who voted with the Republicans... from my perspective I think (many of you will disagree) that Obama opened up the process with good intentions, but with the craziness of the Town Halls and the bad press coming with it he really didn't have much choice but to slowly close it up a bit and put the rabbit back in the box. Palin was totally irresponsible on this, trying to win political points with outright lies (I will be totally transparent here, I hate her with a venomous passion normally reserved for spiders).

"But, the way I see it, this bill almost has to work out well for Republicans"

I have to say that actually... I don't think you're right, but time will tell. Those who benefit from being covered are bound to be happy, those who start to see that universal health care means 'freedom' from worry will come around the same way the Republicans who loathed Medicare in the 1960's wouldn't think of calling for its abolition today. I think there are definitely things to like in this legislation, but the US government is far to infiltrated with backdoor dealing for me to be sure that there aren't serious barbs. As stated before, a fine of 100/day for not coving someone with a pre-existing condition is just silly... I'm expecting risk analyst jobs to soar as folks start to treat people like cars (whats the cost of a re-call versus the cost of lawsuits due to death?)

"One final thing - liberals like you tend to be more educated and erudite in their style and presentation. Thus, you always make your points in fine fashion, and, while I'm sure that style annoys the heck out of some, it may sway some who are otherwise fence-sitters on particular issues. However, bottom line, your contempt for the far right wing comes through clearly. I join you on that score, but I raise you by also having equal contempt for the far left."

Interesting this one. I actually don't consider myself to be far left, and probably not really liberal either. Plus some of the best writers on this board are obviously conservative in viewpoint or strongly independent. I'll take it as a compliment though if you don't mind :)...

You are correct that I have contempt, but not for conservatives, but for intolerance and selfishness. I don't like it when folks live in a bubble and judge others from their viewpoint... (I'm healthy and happy and lucky, so why should I pay for folks who aren't so lucky? Or as one sensitive Republican put it, I don't have children so why should I pay for childbirth?).

On the other hand I really hate it when the far left looks for unlimited social programs for the lazy and fails to find ways to pay for it other than taking from the middle class. Low minimum wages favor big business not small business (a common misconception) as it keeps people in McJobs who then can only afford to buy from the Walmarts of this world. A higher minimum wage means more customers for small businesses who are able to choose products according to other criteria than simply 'cheapness' (Cheapness plays right into the hands of China and India). The more business generated, the more they can afford to pay their staff. Far Leftists miss this completely. They focus on money for this and money for that, without thinking about how to support small businesses and entrepreneurs, who are the real heartbeat of the economy. I think there are WAY too many people in North America who are lazy, 'depressed' (at least on depression medication) or on 'disability' (they have found millions of new diseases that no one in Africa has ever heard of... chronic fatigue syndrome? WTF?), which means that those who really need help are hard to locate through all the fakers. I've personally no time for all this rubbish about criminals being 'victims' and having 'rough childhoods' etc... sorry I could go on, but real left wind bleeding heart liberals tick me off just as much as ignorant, self interested, righteous right-wingers do. Have I offended everyone yet? :)

Anyhow, for me health care is not a political issue right or left... it is a right as a human being to be allowed to benefit from the advances we have made as a society. Once you're healthy, if you want to live as a narrow minded bigot or a dope smoking hippy; I care not.

Soul