Yes, the "rational" non believer ( IMHO) is almost beyond being able to enter into a discusion with a "believer"...somewhat like the attempt of a woman trying to "rationally" communicate to a male of the experience of childbirth...a male may learn a lot ABOUT such experiences, however he will never "know" it (ie experience it), regardless of how rational all parties in the conversation are....just my attempt to clarify, or shed a bit of light....some see "God " in numbers, others in the stars, etc., etc.,.......